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    • #47233
      Juliet Parfitt
      Keymaster
          @juliet

          Ok, for this first forum post, can you answer these two questions:

          1. Which of the six principles reviewed above do you find the most difficult to interpret? And why?
          2. Which ONE principle do you think might not work so well with 2nd language learners?
        • #47390
          Linda Roth
          Participant
              @tinkerbell

              1) I’m not sure I find any of the principles difficult to interpret as such, but I would question the Modality principle. Isn’t this a question of learner preference?

              If I want to know about something I’d much rather read it than listen to someone talking about it, although I can see the benefit of a verbal explanation of the written text or a diagram.

              2) Possibly the above mentioned (Nr.4). L2 learners often find reading easier than listening, since they can move through the text at their own speed.

               

               

               

            • #47408
              Amon Ezike
              Participant
                  @amon246

                  The article provided a clear understanding of the six principles however I find the redundancy principle clashing with accessibility, for instance a learner with auditory learning difficulties will benefit from having both audio and visual text. In addition,  second language learners might benefit in having the visual text  where the audio might be difficult for them to understand.

                  Modality principle might not apply if the material is not in the learners native language, they might prefer to read the text which gives them enough time to assimilate and understand the content.

                   

                • #47409
                  Akiko IWATA
                  Participant
                      @akiko

                      1) I find every six princlpes are useful but it will be difficult to interpret the signaling principle when I suppose that I teach Indonesian language, probably because the language is not yet well organized to teach. I mean even every language doesn’t stop its develpment, but Indonesian language is still on the developing process rather than other major languages.

                      2) Modality principle might not work well because they’d prefer to check whether the sound they hear and the verbal information that they read is same, especially for the beginners.

                    • #47410
                      David Read
                      Keymaster
                          @david

                          Thanks @amon246, @tinkerbell and @akiko for your ideas, some really considered responses to the questions. Amon and Linda, you both mention the modality principle as possibly problematic as it would largely depend on the learners’ preferences. This is a good point. I think we sometimes have to distinguish want and need (true in life I suppose!) in that learners may want to read as it feels more comfortable to them, but research strongly indicates that students retain a lot more if they hear it, I think because it forces a level of concentration that may not always be present in reading. But it’s certainly an interesting point whether we should provide options for students, particularly – as Amon mentions – for accessibility purposes.

                          By the way, notice how I use the @ sign before your usernames (if you don’t know their username, look under their profile picture on the forum for the @ sign). This will ensure you get an email notification if someone mentions you. If you want to refer to what someone said, it’s a good idea to reference them this way.

                        • #47551
                          Joanne Tindall
                          Participant
                              @jomtindall

                              I know what signalling means in terms of giving a presentation. We teach that in class. However, the text said something about, providing cues about hierarchical structures of concepts. Hmmm I am not sure what this means in terms of a presentation and how this would be helpful….  I understand the part referring to overarching organisation of concepts. However, I am not sure how this would be done in practice….

                              I agree with @amon246 and @akiko in terms of modality. Makes sense for L2 speakers

                            • #47555
                              ann clayton
                              Participant
                                  @ann-c

                                  I found the article interesting and could see the difference the examples made to the difference in my own limited understanding.  I’m very interested to see how the model could be used effectively with L2 learners, for example in teaching grammar.  Redundancy in providing the same information  in speaking and text could also be an issue for L2 learners who are unfamiliar with key/new vocabulary and need help matching the sound with the spelling.  Like some of the other commentators, I too like to read information, for me it’s a way I can manage to assimilate info at my own speed.

                                • #47595
                                  Tania Pacheco
                                  Participant
                                      @tania-pacheco

                                      Hi everyone,

                                      I have answered the two questions from the previous sub-unit as well. Sorry for the long answers.

                                      1. What are the six multimedia principles discussed in the article? Which of them would you say you were already familiar with from your own experience or knowledge?

                                      1.     The multimedia or multiple representation principle: I am very familiar with this principle. In languages, for example, it is used when vocabulary is presented using a visual aid while the teacher or a recorded voice shows how to pronounce the words.

                                      2.     The contiguity principle: Association is key for learning languages. Vocabulary is learnt by topics. The big picture: Recycling information and recalling it will help to build up bridges between the old information and the new one. However, I am not sure whether this refer to my reflection. It might be also that the slides should have a coherent development, I was taught that I should present information in a scaffolding way, from word to word and then building up to sentences, then a text.

                                      3.     Redundancy principle: I suppose this refers when presenting the information and this is repetitive. Recalling previous information tend to support learners who needed reinforcement; maybe because they have missed a lesson or they were ill, so in practice this helps to cover any gaps, however I am not sure if my reflection explains the principle, or I misunderstood it.

                                      4.     The modality principle: is verbal repetition when retrieving information more effective than visual information?

                                      5.     Coherence principle: Yes, I agree; overwhelming the learner with unnecessary information is counterproductive.

                                      6.     Signalling principle:  A clear structure of progress in the learning is recommended. Yes, I do it a lot. I’ve worked in secondary schools and just pointing my finger to the screen and dancing to grab their attention was not enough, I needed to signpost everything with funny colours. I am still doing it when teaching adults. Whether I am doing it right, I will know that with this course very soon 😊.

                                      2. The article is (presumably) dealing with L1 speaking students. Do you think there would need to be any changes to the presentation design if they were L2 speaking students?

                                      I did not know the article was for L1 speaking students, the one that it was uploaded, and I have read, was about the study of the “Main components of MRI”. Have I missed the bit about speaking practise?

                                      The article quotes: “In this paper, we draw heavily on multimedia learning theory to articulate flaws in common features of the slides typically used by presenters in engineering.”

                                      For me, the beginning was very easy to understand, and I made some notes, that I would like to share with you because I was very keen then my brain had a blockage because by the middle of the reading, I was completely lost. It would have been easier to have a paper related with a study in languages, maybe?

                                      3. Which of the six principles reviewed above do you find the most difficult to interpret? And why?

                                      –          For me was No.4, the Modality principle: hearing verbal information is more beneficial than seeing the same information presented in text form on the screen.

                                      –          Does this mean that when a person has a slide and read it? I guess, it is not beneficial because the audience can read it by themselves at their own pace, so having an image and the presenter explaining it, is much better. I am not sure how this should look like in languages; for example, I am teaching the present tense with regular verbs in Spanish. I tend to present the conjugated table and I go through it, then I talk about how the endings change in Spanish. Another way, I do it is presenting one by one which takes a while though.

                                      4. Which ONE principle do you think might not work so well with 2nd language learners?

                                      Redundancy principle: in languages and talking by experience repetition, repetition, repetition and repetition is the key. I was taught that vocabulary has to be repeated at least 7 times in different ways so learners can remember the words by the end of the lesson.  I have also noticed that retrieving and recalling information is very beneficial to move the language from working memory to long term memory. Am I making this up? I am not sure, I hope not!

                                       

                                       

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                                    • #47613
                                      David Read
                                      Keymaster
                                          @david

                                          @ann-c, @tania-pacheco and @jomtindall , thanks for adding your thoughts to the discussion. Lots to get our teeth into here and some really useful reflections!

                                          Joanne, just to get your question first, you highlight some nice examples of convoluted academic language in the article where something a little simpler and clearer would be a lot more effective. This is something we’ll run up against numerous times on this course. Not sure if my understanding is the correct one for ‘hierarchical structures of concepts’ but I think it means showing whether terms/concepts belong to a ‘higher’ group and making that clear on your slides or in your content.

                                          To give a very basic example, let’s say you introduce the idea of ‘future forms’ on one slide, when you introduce a sub-category of this (e.g. present continuous for arranged future), you make that relationship clear on the slide: e.g. Future forms: present continuous so that students can see the relationship between them. Not sure that is the best example but if anyone can come up with anything clearer, I’d appreciate it!

                                          Tania and Ann, you both bring up the redundancy principle as a possible issue for 2nd language learners and I can understand why. I certainly agree in some respects, particularly if students want to match sound and spelling. However, I think the article doesn’t fully clarify that this principle doesn’t necessarily suggest you only give students the information via speaking/listening, but rather that’s the best way to introduce it at the start. A couple of questions worth considering:

                                          1. It’s often considered good practice in language teaching – especially English – to get students to hear words first rather than see them. Why is that?
                                          2. What are the challenges of listening/reading at the same time? For example, why is it annoying to watch a presentation where the speaker is just reading exactly what’s written on the slides

                                          I’d love to hear anyone’s thoughts on these. It’s great to see all of you engaging so fully and critically with the article, that’s exactly what we want!

                                          • #48087
                                            Amon Ezike
                                            Participant
                                                @amon246

                                                Yes it is annoying listening to what is already written on the slide. It is total waste of time, you might as well give it to the learners to read on their own then discuss.

                                            • #47984
                                              Tim Radnor
                                              Participant
                                                  @timr

                                                  Which of the six principles reviewed above do you find the most difficult to interpret? And why?

                                                  I find most of them familiar and straightforward, but I agree with @tinkerbell and @akiko that the modality principle and the redundancy principle are the two that throw up a few questions for us as teachers.  I think there are teaching instances where reading text silently without hearing any verbal information may be beneficial – I think it depends on the information and task. For example, as a language teacher, we may show an example of written English on a slide and ask students to spot errors. I am not sure talking as they look for errors is helpful. However, I suspect they are aimed more at lecturers? I think @amon246’s point about accessibility is very interesting to consider, too!

                                                   

                                                • #48070
                                                  Lynne Newcombe
                                                  Participant
                                                      @lynnen

                                                      I agree with all of the discussion around the modality principle being problematic because of learning preferences, accessibility and L2 learners. Just like @Ann, I prefer to read and assimilate information at my own pace, but I wonder if that is because the power point template has made this style of slide more familiar?  I also agree with @Tim that this seems to be aimed at lecturing staff who may well be able to use explanatory images in their slides rather than language teachers who are constrained to use text because of the subject matter we teach.

                                                    • #48113
                                                      David Read
                                                      Keymaster
                                                          @david

                                                          Thanks @amon , @timr and @lynnen for your contributions. I think it can be confusing sometimes to consider these principles in relation to giving a presentation as it does in the article. I think the reason I chose the article is that it gives a fairly good summary of the six principles and presentations are something we have all experienced and given, so it’s very familiar context for us.

                                                          At the same time, we also tend to think of presentations as done ‘live’ (whether online or face to face) so we have an audience. In this course the focus is more on creating asynchronous content, so content that is accessed by an individual at a time of their own choosing. It’s likely to be recorded in some format or use software to create interactions. Certainly in a ‘live’ setting we may want to put more text on slides to give support, as it’s possible that students might miss something due to the lecturer speaking too fast, mumbling words, distractions etc, but in an asynchronous context, students have more time to control the speed of what they take in, so we may be able to adhere more to principles of effective learning, such as providing audio input before written input.

                                                          However, as Lynne points out, it’s very difficult to generalise as what might seem to be appropriate in one discipline might not work so well in another. So, in mechanical engineering it’s perhaps easier to introduce a principle through images of objects and recorded voiceover, but a lot trickier for example when teaching how to write a paragraph. Which is probably true. But at the same time, there are ways to help students understand paragraph writing that doesn’t involve slapping huge amounts of text on the screen for them to look through. We can help them by providing a visual representation of a paragraph through diagrams or colours and talking through it before showing them a textual version. I think the idea is not that we never put text on the screen, but rather introducing new ideas via visuals and audio might help them at the start and avoid too much cognitive overload. Anyhow, I’d love to hear all of your thoughts on these points as we go through the units.

                                                        • #48326
                                                          Juliet Parfitt
                                                          Keymaster
                                                              @juliet

                                                              A few people have mentioned the modality principle as causing problems for (second language) learners (e.g. @tinkerbell, @amon246, @akiko, @timr, @lynnen). One thing the article doesn’t make entirely clear with this principle is that it only applies when words are used with graphics, and when the graphics are the focus of the words. If we have a picture together with a written text, both of these are processed through the eyes, which increases load because we can’t look at both at the same time. We can reduce the load on the eyes, and therefore increase processing capacity, by describing the image with speech (processed through the ears).

                                                              Clarke and  Mayer (2016) (E-Learning and the Science of Instruction) present these principles as recommendations to be used for guidance, rather than as rules. They point out that the modality principle does not apply when words are used alone without graphics, and also explain that printed words should be available in certain cases, e.g. for some second language learners, when the words are unfamiliar, or even to use for future reference. I agree that this would also include for accessibility.

                                                            • #48446
                                                              Helen Shaw-Cotterill
                                                              Participant
                                                                  @helen-sc

                                                                  I agree with a lot of what has already been said but one thing that came to mind for me regarding the modality principle was that L2 students might benefit more from hearing the text rather than reading it as it may help with their pronunciation of the words. I found when I learnt Spanish, seeing the subtitles and hearing the spoken form helped me to understand the pron of some words. Of course, in relation to slides, this depends  on what is being taught. I do agree with the redundancy principle though -there is nothing worse than having slides read aloud to you word for word!!!

                                                                • #48798
                                                                  Richard Davie
                                                                  Participant
                                                                      @egq22rd
                                                                      1. Which of the six principles reviewed above do you find the most difficult to interpret? And why?
                                                                      2. Which ONE principle do you think might not work so well with 2nd language learners?

                                                                      Like most of you, the principles themselves seem clear, and again like most of you, in 2nd lang. contexts the modality & redundancy ones are more problematic (at least if taken as iron laws rather than forms of guidance).

                                                                      For redundancy, regardless of L1, for any substantial text I shut up and give reading time rather than talk over. (Of course, that still raises the Q of whether I should be displaying lengthy text on any given occasion.) The cognitive over-work addressed by the redundancy principle is also more acute for L2 learners who are trying to take notes in real time, as the labour of recording competes with the labour of understanding. But this course is focused on asynchronous content creation, where that is less of an issue.

                                                                      On a related matter, as I think @ David raised, a lot depends on what is done with a ‘presentation’: how it’s viewed, how many times, etc. etc. Designing something for real-time uptake only is going to be different (I guess) from designing for something more under the learner’s own control.

                                                                      By the way, sorry I appear as @ Egq22rd!: I missed a step in changing my institutional username to a regular handle for this course. At least no confusion likely with any other Richards.

                                                                      [Strangely, in the in-unit view of this forum, both @ references default to @tinkerbell… so I’ve put in a space after the @ to prevent that.]

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